She broke my computer....grrr About This Page:

[Pax]

Originally Posted by Huntermom

When I was talking about cheap laptops, I was talking about those sold at Walmart and staples and even Best Buy for under $300.

Oh, those kinds of things. Ugh.

Even so, my point wasn't "you can get a cheap junk PC and it'll be better than a Mac". My point was, "you can build a windows PC, using quality components, with exactly the same (or better) hardware as a Mac desktop .... and it'll be cheaper, even paying someone else to do the assembly".

Seriously, my comparison matched that Mac desktop unit on everything but CPU - and the CPU I picked out is loads better - and even with a 20% markup for assembly, came out a hundred bucks cheaper.

Like I said: you're paying a premium for that Apple logo on the case.

PLus I think Apple operating systems do not have all the kinks Windows have.

The main reason for that, is this: MacOS only has to "speak" a low number of "languages" - Mac architecture is pretty locked down, there are only so many configurations possible.

Whereas Windows machines come in an almost literally infinite array of configurations, so Windows has to know how to speak to thousands upon thousands of different kinds of parts - and mixtures of parts.

And that is, IMO, more of a strength for Windows, than for Mac.

See, I just had a major component fail, in my Windows PC: the video card, after years of very hard use, suffered a VMEM failure. Completely bricked the unit - and the kind of failure it suffered meant that fixing that card would have cost at least twice as much as just replacing it.

If it had been a Mac suffering a "major component failure" like that? Likely that would mean buying a completely new computer. Would have cost another two or three grand (this is not a low-end machine, I'm a video gaming enthusiast).

But, as it actually turned out? I just bought a new video card, cleaned out the old GPU drivers, installed the new ones, and ... bam. Not only working again, but working better (as the new card is slightly more powerful than the old).

...

If you mean virii and such: that's not because MacOS is intrinsically less vulnerable. That's because the smaller installbase means fewer crooks and punks are writing them in the first place. And "obscurity is not security".

And don't get me wrong; for some products, I'm an Apple fan all the way - iPod nano, iPad, iTunes, absolutely. If I had any use for a smartphone, it'd be an iPhone.

It's just, when it comes to desktop machines ... I can buy a sticker of the apple logo, and still save a lot of money. (And triply-especially so at MY end of the price spectrum: this PC cost me over $3,000 - with a relatively steep OEM markup - three years ago. To get this level of capability from a Mac, ignoring the relative dearth of games on Mac, would have taken at least another thousand dollars .... if it was even possible at all.)

[Huntermom]

I not arguing that a high end PC isn't particularly good. but I would guess the average price of a PC sold and used is well under 1K. And it is a hard decision. My desk top for work was about $450. but it doesn't have any bells and whistles. I use it for business and don't need anything that would support games or videos. BUt I also have gotten PC's with a lot more stuff for less.

I also hate Windows 10 or what ever is on this computer and now on my old laptop. I am old, I don't like having to relearn a whole new operating system.

[Pax]

Well, the entry level for a desktop Mac is $1.1K; and if you go to the right person - or do a lot of research yourself - you can build a surprisingly inexpensive PC, out of quality parts. You just have to accept some limitations on it's capabilities .... and if you're not going to be running CAD/CAM software, doing a lot of photoshop work, or playing higher-end games ... those limitations amount to "just what you need".

Essentially, I guess what I'm saying is: "if you're not stuck on that apple logo, you can get a PC that's just as good, for less money."

Oh, and: I only went with Win10, because it's the latest version. Even NewEgg is still selling Win7 and Win8 licenses, for about $140. OEM copies instead of Retail, though - so no direct tech support from Microsoft. Still, it's possible.

Here's another example of how the same budget can take you further, with a Windows PC:

$140 ... OS: Win7 Pro x64
$_80 ... APU: AMD A8-7600 quad-core 3.1GHz (with integrated Radeon R7 graphics) Aside from simply wearing out, it sounds like this would do you for MANY years.
$_80 ... Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-F2A88X-D3HP
$_38 ... Memory: Crucial Ballistix Tactical (2x 4GB)
$_88 ... Primary Storage: Intel 540s, 180GB, 2.5" SSD
$_99 ... Secondary Storage: Western Digital WD Green, 2TB Hard Drive
$_85 ... Case: Antec P100, Mid-Tower
$100 ... Power Supply: Seasonic SS-FL2 (active PFC, modular, 80+ Platinum)
$100 ... Optical Drive: LG Eletronics Combo drive (read Blu-Ray/DVD/CD; burn DVD/CD)


... total comes to $910 (plus S&H or sales tax), self-assembled. Call it $1100 - the same as that basic-model Mac desktop - with a ~20% markup from an OEM or computer shop for assembly services.

And it's every bit is high quality stuff, it actually HAS some bells and whistles that the MAcintosh lacks; my top-end machine uses motherboard, SSD, and HDD _very_ similar to the ones above (my MB is an older model, actually; my SSD is 240GB; my HDD is 3TB). I'm even using an Antec case, though a different model than the P100.

So that is, quite literally, "a better desktop, for about the same money". And that's my entire point: Apple's non-mobile devices are somewhat overpriced for what they offer. (OTOH, their mobile devices are very, very good IMO - well worth the money.) I wouldn't play games much on the build above - casual and/or older stuff, maybe - but then, I wouldn't try playing games on the basic Mac desktop, either.

[Huntermom]

Sean,

I am guessing you are still twice the price of the average PC (tower only) one picks up at a big box store.

I congratulate you on avoiding Windows 10. My other laptop updated to it without my consent. I have always had pc's but find Windows frustrating, I don't know why it keeps being updated and never starts off well. There are some of us who would be happy still using the original windows and remember the good old dos days.

[Pax]

Originally Posted by Huntermom

I am guessing you are still twice the price of the average PC (tower only) one picks up at a big box store.

Still completely missing my point.

The base model of iMac - that's Apple's Desktop line - starts at $1,099. You literally cannot get a Mac desktop for any less.

Comparing that, to "cheap knockoff" $300 machines you find in places like Wal-Mart is like ...

... like ...

... like comparing a single hamburger value meal from McDonalds, to a full dinner at Narcoosee's. Seriously - they're both food, they both include meat ... but they aren't even pretending to be in the same league at all.

It's the same with the computers. Noone realistically thinks a $300 Wal-Mart PC should compare at all to a $1,100 Mac. No, you should compare an $1,100 (OEM-assembled) PC to a $1,100 Mac.

If you want to compare PC to Mac, you need to start with something that is the same from one to the other. So either you aim for the same price point (and see which one winds up with the stronger hardware profile), or you aim for the same parts list (and see which one winds up costing less).

Both of which I did. Both times, the PC came out the winner for price AND power.

...

Apple builds it's computers with older-model (even obsolete) parts with proven track records, tests a given configuration into oblivion, and finally, tailors their OS to especially handle that exact setup and it's quirks (those three together are the source of their reputaton for reliability).

Then, they take that well-tested, customised-OS, older technology computer, and slap a "bleeding edge of computing hardware" pricetag on it.

In the end, what that means is: that Apple logo on the case is worth about a 10% to 15% markup, all by itself, over any Windows PC of identical specifications - on top of the usual OEM costs.

I congratulate you on avoiding Windows 10.

... but I didn't. That last build was with someone like you (who dislikes Win10) in mind.

This machine is on Windows 10 right now; it was Win7 when I bought it, and I held off updating for a few months after Win10 happened (to give time for the post-launch bugs to get ironed out). But it's Win10 now, and .... really, I haven't had any problems with it at all. Win10 isn't all that dissimilar to Win7 for most operations, I've found.

[Huntermom]

Sean,

We do not disagree. You made my original point. My son said people who say Apple is better say so because they have experienced a more expensive computer. And if they are students, many of the PCs they experienced (from their friends) are those lower level box store ones. Apple users have not experienced those becuase you cannot buy a $500. Apple.

I use PCs because my son who builds them for me, like you, prefers them. But he is willing to put money into them. And my daughter and daughter in law both prefer Apple in large part because of medical software that is available.

I have a PC that still runs and works for word processing that I bought in 1998, Ds says I cannot update anything on it and I can no longet find a printer that is compatible. When I have had computers die and have picked up something cheap, they just don't last.

[Pax]

And, once again I think you're missing my point. This isn't about how there are low-quality PCs available. They're irrelevant to my point.

Let me try this one last time:

Outside a narrow range of circumstances (that Medical-profession software you mentioned), the money you would spend on that Mac desktop .... would buy you a better computer, if you spent it all on a PC.

A $1,100 PC is going to be better than a $1,100 Mac.

A $2,500 PC is going to be better than a $2,500 Mac.

...

The fact that you CAN cheap out on the PC and buy a pile of useless junk, does not change or in any other way interact with my point: dollar for dollar, PCs are better than Macs, because Apple's prices are artificially inflated.

[CinderAbby]

If you'd like to make a new thread and argue the point of PC versus make, cost and otherwise, you certainly can but at this point in time, it has absolutely nothing to do with my original post anymore.

[Pax]

Sorry, CA. I'll drop it.

[Huntermom]

Darlene, Sorry. My point to you was your computer going on the fritz may have had nothing to do with Abby. I personally have had several less expensive machines die and I am the only one who used them. I just don't think they are made to last very long.

I hope yours is going again and Abby is not in the dog house.

[feonag]

Can you run it in safe mode and try to restore to the last saved point? That usually does it for us. My computer always goes on the fritz when my girls go on it. I think they go to weird sites and even though I have spyware, it still seam to go wacky. I just got a new one for myself last month and gave them my old one.